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CX2SA > SATDIG 17.07.08 02:31l 1027 Lines 41681 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Vanishing Hams (Robert Bruninga)
2. Re: Vanishing hams and an after thought about young hams and
sats (Mark VandeWettering)
3. Any Interest in ASMO (D. Mynatt)
4. Re: Vanishing Hams (dsp engineer)
5. Re: Vanishing hams and an after thought about young hams and
sats (Alex Perez)
6. Re: Vanishing Hams (Andrew Carter)
7. Re: AMSAT NA (John B. Stephensen)
8. Re: Vanishing Hams (Tony Langdon)
9. Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!! (John B. Stephensen)
10. Re: Vanishing Hams (Robert Bruninga)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:22:10 -0400
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga(AT)usna.edu>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <1ACBE70892A840268BC91685DB58D8CD(AT)ewlab.usna.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> Then consider that APRS has had global text-
>> messaging (and email) via the keypad of the
>> D7 and D700 radios for over 10 years now...
> ... the weakness of APRS is the lack of manufacturers...
More coming... D7, D700, D710, now Yeasu VX-8R and some DSTAR
GPS TX support...
> ... I would need integrated APRS support, D-STAR/D-PRS
> capability (so I can do both in the one radio),
I sure hope we can work this out. The DSTAR radio has a display
and D-PRS has defined the translations between DSTAR and APRS...
So it is all in work...
> Satellite APRS is certainly something that's
> quite useful... for camping... in remote areas
> to keep in touch. APRS didn't gain that "WOW"
> factor in the same time, it was always seen as
> a useful niche application...
Because too many people only see it as a vehicle tracking system
(TX-ing GPS data) instead of the original intent (Receiving and
displaying all surrounding local information to the mobile
operator)... Think "tiny-web-pages" on the front panel of the
radio showing satellites in view(now), freqs, doppler, local
voice freq, local Echolink freq, local IRLP freq, club meetings,
net times. A veritable resource of everything a traveler would
need to know when he entered an area...
> Also, lack of inbuilt GPS or wireless GPS
In most APRS applications, and especially in satellite
operations, few people need a GPS unless they are lost or cannot
read a map. No one cares exactly where most people are, just
approximately, and that is why APRS provides for 1, 10 and 60
mile ambiguity. For satellite use, just set your 10 mile
position, so people can see what city and gridsquare you are in,
and don't bother with the GPS..
> For home use...
APRS is more of an information resource display system for the
mobile operator. Not much needed in the shack in competition
with the WWW. Its value is in the display to the mobile
operator of everything going on around him in HAM radio. Though
this does need home stations and active stations that are
actually doing something, to post those real time objects,
events, and bulletins on APRS for others...
> I can only run HTs and networked applications
> (e.g. VoIP, local I-Gate) that don't require
> physical presence in the shack...
Which is why APRS as an info display system in the mobile is so
valuable... Its where we spend a lot of our time with not much
else to do but sit in traffic... Now when I drive into a new
area, the APRS radio displays the locally recommended voice
frequency/tone there and this alone makes ham radio so much more
useful when traveling...
Bob, WB4APR
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:36:56 -0700
From: Mark VandeWettering <kf6kyi(AT)gmail.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing hams and an after thought about
young hams and sats
To: Michael Tondee <mat_62(AT)netcommander.com>
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <487E7808.6080703(AT)gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Michael Tondee wrote:
> Just as an afterthought about the FM sats that always seem to draw so much
> ire and drawing youth into the hobby.
> Say you have a young person who shows interest in the hobby, specifically
> satellites.Which way do you think you might have more success getting the
> kid motivated to get his license, show them a comparetively inexpensive Dual
> band HT and an Arrow antenna that is more than likely to be finacially
> achievable for him/her and let them listen to grid square exchanges or maybe
> witness the magic of APRS?
> Or, show them your super duper decked out sat station complete with
> switchable CP antennas and the latest an greatest DC to daylight rig plus
> your sophisticated AZ/El tracking system that, while really impressive and
> beautiful, is going to seem impossible to obtain for them? Then use the
> station with all it's technical wizardry to let them listen to some fella
> spend the entire pass of the SSB/CW satellite yakking about his impending
> hernia operation....... Think about it.....
> Michael
Excellent point, and one that should be emphasized. We've seen lots of
people bitch about FM satellites, but they are very nearly ideal for
trying to get new, young hams interested in amateur satellites.
First of all, there is the cost factor. A reasonable dual band HT is an
item that lots of hams can afford. You can probably get a suitable pair
of single band HTs even cheaper, especially if you are shopping on the
used market. Add an Arrow or any of the many homebrew equivalents, and
you've got yourself a station for operating the FM birds, not just in a
slap/dash manner, but in a way that works pretty darned well. Or, you
could use any of a number of inexpensive FM mobile rigs, perhaps in
combination with an HT. What's also cool is that these rigs aren't
"single taskers": people can use them to communicate with their local
communities via simplex and/or repeaters, and even use them for
emergencies. Once they get their feet wet, they can move up to AO-51
via some of K5GNA's downconverters, which are awesome and reasonably
priced.
Someone can argue that using used equipment, one can equip an SSB/CW
station as inexpensively. First of all, there is FM equipment on the
used market even more than there is used SSB/CW equipment for VHF/UHF,
so if you are going to resort to that, you can also make your FM station
cheaper, and probably proportionately more cheaply, since the market for
FM gear is generally more competitive. Second, people who are new to
the hobby are unlikely to have the expertise and the networking that
more experienced hams do, and will have difficulty in finding those
terrific steals that you more experienced hams seem to find with such
ease. This means that the used market is relatively less useful for
them, and can be frustrating for them if they end up buying overpriced
or non-functional gear in an attempt to "save".
Secondly, young hams are often operate at the convenience of others.
Erecting larger antennas and the like are even more difficult for them
than it is for us who might just have a home owners association to deal
with: they have to convince mom&dad to go to up against their home
owners association. So mobile operation from small antennas is more
attractive to them anyway. Mobile operation on most of the linear
birds is difficult, often using 2 radios, and guided antennas and
computer aided doppler tuning. Yes, you can do without all that stuff,
but it's far from easy, and very intimidating. It's just too easy to
make mistakes in one or more of the five things you have to do at once.
Thirdly, operating with QRP level signals is just safer. It's really
pretty difficult for kids to hurt themselves with an HT. They aren't
beaming several watts of microwave energy into directional antennas.
There are other good things: APRS messaging through the birds is fun.
Monitoring downlinks from cubesats and from weather sats is fun, and can
be done with a TH-F6A or the like. I wrote my own satellite tracking
code for fun. My own satellite picture decoder for fun. Built a small
yagi for 2m for fun.
Ham radio should be less of an investment of $$$ and more of an
investment of one's own energy and enthusiasm.
Look at it this way: can you think of another hobby that spends as much
time soul searching, trying to attract new members to its ranks. If ham
radio were really fun, we couldn't keep them from joining us.
Mark
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:01:40 -0600
From: "D. Mynatt" <dave(AT)mynatt.biz>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Any Interest in ASMO
To: "AMSAT-BB" <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <B821EB03715E4890BB5E2B58E9FF180D(AT)compaq>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Since my post, I've not seen a response or comment so I wonder if there any
interest in working with ASMO folks? Be neat to be involved with a lunar
satellite doing real work and having real data and imaging communications. We
could help them by working with local colleges to build a series of ground
stations.
Dave
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:04:54 +0000
From: dsp engineer <dsp_ee(AT)hotmail.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <BLU112-W2049264AF04C57EA42A427F78F0(AT)phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob,
Over the past 43 years as a ham and Electrical Engineer (and Computer
Scientist) I have tried about everything I can think of to interest kids in
ham radio. My conclusion is that we need to direct ham radio toward the 40 to
70 year olds who are less interested in the tech end of it and more interested
in the people end of it.
I can be counted as one of your "10% who have tried APRS".
In the 10+ years i have been listening to you champion APRS, I have yet to
find a single use for it.
Lets see, here in SoCAL I can get the weather report from a dozen or so APRS
stations in the LA basin. I can get a better WX report by either listening
to NOAA on a radio or by logging on to the web.
With APRS I can see the position of several dozen ham stations in the SoCAL
basin - so what? Of what use is this information?
Finally I can use APRS to send text messages - again so what?
APRS, like ham radio, is a low tech solution looking for a problem.
Technology passed APRS and Packet radio by 10 years ago. The cell phone did
the same thing for FM and repeaters. 10 years ago you could not find a free
repeater to talk on in SoCAL at drive time. Now, you can not find anyone to
talk to on a repeater at drive time. Hams were among the first to realize
that the cell phone was a heck of a lot faster and more reliable during a road
side emergency verses trying to make an autopatch call . Thus, the attraction
to getting a license and using a repeater disappeared just as the reason for
Packet radio disappeared.
Finally, APRS and its derivatives are fighting a basic problem - the bandwidth
is too low to allow adequate data rates. 56k baud modems put an end to Packet
radio 10 years ago. Until you employ a scheme similar to ADSL, you are
limited by the bandwidth of a single fm channel. There are FM channels set
aside for hi speed wide band comm. However, your competition, the commercial
carriers have you beat on price, availability, and reliability. More over,
they have the the cost economies brought about by a tremendous number of
users.
The kids you are trying to impress with ham radio in general and APRS in
specific just roll their eyes and go back to their iPhones and PC's. After
all, ham radio is another name for AMATEUR radio. The world is no longer
impressed with amateur solutions to Telecommunications just as it is no longer
impressed with using horses for basic transportation.
Tim AA6DQ
> From: bruninga(AT)usna.edu
> To: K5GNA(AT)aol.com; amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:03:21 -0400
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
>
> > Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. --
> > everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications
> > is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much
> > universal skills now.
>
> Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the
> greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even some
> old-fud adults are learning how to use it..
>
> Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and
> email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10
> years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using it
> or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?
>
> You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or Radio
> from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS,
> GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone should
> learn how to do this and exercise it during
> Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any old
> TNC and any old radio to do this. See:
> http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
>
> > Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when
> > there is loss of communications during a disaster,
> > with newer technology, even that could change.
>
> What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to
> wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be
> tried and to take hold...
>
> > Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing
> > new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no
> > one will remember what those letters even stood for.
>
> A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that try
> something new...
> And then show it to a kid... <wink>
>
> P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and
> probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this
> global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10 years
> ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!
>
> >From an old fud..
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger
2_072008
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:05:25 -0700
From: Alex Perez <aperez(AT)alexperez.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing hams and an after thought about
young hams and sats
To: Michael Tondee <mat_62(AT)netcommander.com>
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <5A433E8F-FF32-4B00-B0EE-1277F24291A4(AT)alexperez.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Michael,
On Jul 16, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Michael Tondee wrote:
> I always read with great interest when I see references to "the
> graying of
> the hobby" .
As do I, as a 25 year old guy who grew up with a dad as a very
occasional ham and who was a broadcast engineer for a living. I
decided to get licensed when I was 19, after I was living on my own,
on Sept. 10, 2001. I'm now 25, and living back in the San Francisco
Bay Area, where, probably moreso than other locales, the ham
population is nearly non-existant for folks under 40. I'm 25 now, and
I live in San Francisco proper. There's zero ham community here.
> When we start to talk about old hams I always wonder whose
> definition of old we are using. I'm 45 and I certainly don't
> consider myself
> old. I see a lot of hams my age or thereabouts at hamfest and in QST
> and
> AMSAT journal pics etc. etc.. I once worked in the retail end of
> amateur
> radio and I saw a lot of hams anywhere between 30 and 50 coming in
> and out
> of the store everyday.
How long ago? I suspect that may have changed. There's one local
amateur radio shop in Oakland around here, and the staff there has
frankly been somewhat cold, although not un-friendly, to the new folk
who have walked into the place as I've been there.
> I also saw the stereotypical old gray haired fellas
> who always looked as grouchy and unhappy as they seemed. ( Funny,
> somehow I
> envision Dave G. this way. ;-) ) I guess what I'm getting at is
> that it's
> all a matter of perspective. To a teenager I guess I'm what Bob
> calls an old
> fud. To me an old Fud is one of you 65 or 70 year old retired
> fellas. And
> no, I don't think you are all old grouchy and unhappy, just some of
> you.
> 73,
Having worked with and under a variety of bosses/coworkers of
disparate ages, I've personally found there's a pretty strong
generational/relational schism between myself and someone over ~45-50.
For myself at least, this is the point at which I find it much more
difficult to relate, and I suspect that's true in the inverse as well.
As the ham community ages, and fresh blood becomes more scarce, I only
see this getting worse. Amateur radio doesn't have to be something
which predominantly sedentary 50+ year old men partake in.
The ARRL needs to do, as well as support other ARRL members who may
wish to volunteer assisting with, way more outreach to folks under 40,
and not simply in churches and youth groups, which I tend to read
about far more than other venues.
>
> Michael, W4HIJ
>
> Just as an afterthought about the FM sats that always seem to draw
> so much
> ire and drawing youth into the hobby.
> Say you have a young person who shows interest in the hobby,
> specifically
> satellites.Which way do you think you might have more success
> getting the
> kid motivated to get his license, show them a comparetively
> inexpensive Dual
> band HT and an Arrow antenna that is more than likely to be finacially
> achievable for him/her and let them listen to grid square exchanges
> or maybe
> witness the magic of APRS?
I personally think FM sat would be far more attractive/sexy to a non-
amateur. As a professional career systems administrator, the data
modes certainly appeal to me as well, however I suspect I'm in the
minority with that viewpoint.
>
> Or, show them your super duper decked out sat station complete with
> switchable CP antennas and the latest an greatest DC to daylight rig
> plus
> your sophisticated AZ/El tracking system that, while really
> impressive and
> beautiful, is going to seem impossible to obtain for them? Then use
> the
> station with all it's technical wizardry to let them listen to some
> fella
> spend the entire pass of the SSB/CW satellite yakking about his
> impending
> hernia operation....... Think about it.....
Yep, there's a great book called Low Profile Amateur Radio, published
by the ARRL, and authored by Al Brodgon, W1AB. The second edition is
57 pages long and cost me $20. I often lend it out to friends and
associates who are interested in learning about what they can do "on
the cheap" or without a pile of huge equipment. As more and more
people live in urban environments across the world than ever before,
the reality that we're likely to have less physical space for our
prospective ham rigs is something which must be addressed and
acknowledged by anyone looking to help recruit new hams. Our
forefathers were far more likely to live in the 'burbs with a nice big
backyard and lots of space for ones' antennas and rigs.
Regards,
Alex Perez
KD7OFR
> Michael
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:26:13 -0400
From: Andrew Carter <acarter3(AT)nd.edu>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <B246BADB-F6FB-49F5-8DBF-0550C6550CD6(AT)nd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I usually just lurk on this list, but I will chime in. I am a 22 year-
old fresh EE graduate going on to grad school, and I really enjoy this
hobby, when I can. I absolutely love Field Day; I learn so much from
other hams. It can be difficult as a student to have the money, space,
and time to get on the air. However, it can be done. It also helps if
your college or high school has a station. I agree that many
activities ham radio currently does are anachronistic, but I find the
core of ham radio is talking to each other; anyone can do it! I just
hope I can keep the hobby alive when I am an old guy.
And Bob, the first definition amateur is "A person who engages in an
art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as
a profession," and the third is "One lacking the skill of a
professional, as in an art." (http://www.answers.com/amateur&r=67) :)
Andy, W0OOT
On Jul 16, 2008, at 7:04 PM, dsp engineer wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Over the past 43 years as a ham and Electrical Engineer (and
> Computer Scientist) I have tried about everything I can think of to
> interest kids in ham radio. My conclusion is that we need to direct
> ham radio toward the 40 to 70 year olds who are less interested in
> the tech end of it and more interested in the people end of it.
>
> I can be counted as one of your "10% who have tried APRS".
>
> In the 10+ years i have been listening to you champion APRS, I have
> yet to find a single use for it.
> Lets see, here in SoCAL I can get the weather report from a dozen or
> so APRS stations in the LA basin. I can get a better WX report by
> either listening to NOAA on a radio or by logging on to the web.
> With APRS I can see the position of several dozen ham stations in
> the SoCAL basin - so what? Of what use is this information?
> Finally I can use APRS to send text messages - again so what?
>
> APRS, like ham radio, is a low tech solution looking for a problem.
> Technology passed APRS and Packet radio by 10 years ago. The cell
> phone did the same thing for FM and repeaters. 10 years ago you
> could not find a free repeater to talk on in SoCAL at drive time.
> Now, you can not find anyone to talk to on a repeater at drive
> time. Hams were among the first to realize that the cell phone
> was a heck of a lot faster and more reliable during a road side
> emergency verses trying to make an autopatch call . Thus, the
> attraction to getting a license and using a repeater disappeared
> just as the reason for Packet radio disappeared.
> Finally, APRS and its derivatives are fighting a basic problem - the
> bandwidth is too low to allow adequate data rates. 56k baud modems
> put an end to Packet radio 10 years ago. Until you employ a scheme
> similar to ADSL, you are limited by the bandwidth of a single fm
> channel. There are FM channels set aside for hi speed wide band
> comm. However, your competition, the commercial carriers have you
> beat on price, availability, and reliability. More over, they have
> the the cost economies brought about by a tremendous number of users.
>
> The kids you are trying to impress with ham radio in general and
> APRS in specific just roll their eyes and go back to their iPhones
> and PC's. After all, ham radio is another name for AMATEUR radio.
> The world is no longer impressed with amateur solutions to
> Telecommunications just as it is no longer impressed with using
> horses for basic transportation.
>
> Tim AA6DQ
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: bruninga(AT)usna.edu
>> To: K5GNA(AT)aol.com; amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
>> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:03:21 -0400
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
>>
>>> Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. --
>>> everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications
>>> is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much
>>> universal skills now.
>>
>> Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the
>> greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even some
>> old-fud adults are learning how to use it..
>>
>> Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and
>> email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10
>> years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using it
>> or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?
>>
>> You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or Radio
>> from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS,
>> GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone should
>> learn how to do this and exercise it during
>> Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any old
>> TNC and any old radio to do this. See:
>> http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
>>
>>> Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when
>>> there is loss of communications during a disaster,
>>> with newer technology, even that could change.
>>
>> What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to
>> wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be
>> tried and to take hold...
>>
>>> Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing
>>> new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no
>>> one will remember what those letters even stood for.
>>
>> A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that try
>> something new...
>> And then show it to a kid... <wink>
>>
>> P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and
>> probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this
>> global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10 years
>> ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!
>>
>>> From an old fud..
>> Bob, WB4APR
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger
2_072008
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
> author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
--
Andrew Daniel Carter
University of Notre Dame
P.O. Box 37
Notre Dame, IN 46556
Worldwide: +1 847 815 8600
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:49:05 -0000
From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
To: <G0MRF(AT)aol.com>, <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <020701c8e79e$88bebdf0$0201a8c0(AT)your6bvpxyztoq>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
In american english both mean the same thing. There's no implication of a
broken promise.
My problem with some amsat-bb users is that they are complaining about
transient personnel issues that have no long-term relavence to the amateur
satellite program but completely ignore the big problem. I makes me wonder how
much money that they have given to AMSAT-NA, AMSAT-UK or AMSAT-DL and doesn't
encourage those of us who donate our time and money.
73,
John
KD6OZH
----- Original Message -----
From: G0MRF(AT)aol.com
To: kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net ; amsat-bb(AT)AMSAT.Org
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 20:21 UTC
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
In a message dated 16/07/2008 06:31:11 GMT Standard Time,
kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net writes:
AMSAT-NA personnel issue, but aren't concerned
that AMSAT-DL announced that they can't pay for the P3E launch.
===================================================
No, the quote is that they can not afford the price given by Arianespace.
That is not the same thing. You are exagerating the facts (again)
David G0MRF
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:52:43 +1000
From: Tony Langdon <vk3jed(AT)gmail.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: bruninga(AT)usna.edu, <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <487e89ce.26f8720a.1f78.1dac(AT)mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 08:22 AM 7/17/2008, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Continuing in the light of
> >> Then consider that APRS has had global text-
> >> messaging (and email) via the keypad of the
> >> D7 and D700 radios for over 10 years now...
>
> > ... the weakness of APRS is the lack of manufacturers...
>
>More coming... D7, D700, D710, now Yeasu VX-8R and some DSTAR
>GPS TX support...
That's good to see. I'll probably go the D-STAR route, given I have
gear for that.
> > ... I would need integrated APRS support, D-STAR/D-PRS
> > capability (so I can do both in the one radio),
>
>I sure hope we can work this out. The DSTAR radio has a display
>and D-PRS has defined the translations between DSTAR and APRS...
>So it is all in work...
That would be good. It makes sense to combine the two systems into a
common data set with different access protocols (D-STAR vs
AX.25/APRS). Initially, I would be likely to access it via D-STAR
when portable.
>Because too many people only see it as a vehicle tracking system
>(TX-ing GPS data) instead of the original intent (Receiving and
Yes, it was promoted that way, and in some situations, that is a
useful function (obviously, not so much for home stations! :D
). That data is more useful for location based services (see below).
>displaying all surrounding local information to the mobile
>operator)... Think "tiny-web-pages" on the front panel of the
>radio showing satellites in view(now), freqs, doppler, local
>voice freq, local Echolink freq, local IRLP freq, club meetings,
>net times. A veritable resource of everything a traveler would
>need to know when he entered an area...
That is certainly the way to go, when combined with a query based
mechanism, which I believe you defined for that purpose.
> > Also, lack of inbuilt GPS or wireless GPS
>
>In most APRS applications, and especially in satellite
>operations, few people need a GPS unless they are lost or cannot
>read a map. No one cares exactly where most people are, just
>approximately, and that is why APRS provides for 1, 10 and 60
>mile ambiguity. For satellite use, just set your 10 mile
>position, so people can see what city and gridsquare you are in,
>and don't bother with the GPS..
Well, in lesser populated areas, that's true, here in town, there are
some applications where more precise positioning is
helpful. Satellite is usually an exception, because the distances
involved mean accuracy of position is not an issue. For my portable
wanderings, I would also need a GPS simply because it can
automatically update my position (regardless of accuracy desired). I
don't do well manually monitoring and updating. :)
> > For home use...
>
>APRS is more of an information resource display system for the
>mobile operator. Not much needed in the shack in competition
>with the WWW. Its value is in the display to the mobile
>operator of everything going on around him in HAM radio. Though
>this does need home stations and active stations that are
>actually doing something, to post those real time objects,
>events, and bulletins on APRS for others...
I can see that would be the useful side of the technology. Certainly
often get the issue of the nearest IRLP, Echolink system, radio club, etc.
> > I can only run HTs and networked applications
> > (e.g. VoIP, local I-Gate) that don't require
> > physical presence in the shack...
>
>Which is why APRS as an info display system in the mobile is so
>valuable... Its where we spend a lot of our time with not much
>else to do but sit in traffic... Now when I drive into a new
>area, the APRS radio displays the locally recommended voice
>frequency/tone there and this alone makes ham radio so much more
>useful when traveling...
Well, I tend to sit on trains myself, these days - and that's why a
mobile-centric system has severe limitations. I have to be _much_
more mobile than that. As an information consumer, APRS has some
potential benefits (though in a familiar area, the info is usually
remembered anyway). As a source of traffic, messaging, etc, it has
potential, though I have full mobile IM capabilities anyway at no
extra cost. For position dependent information (e.g. IRLP nodes in
an unfamiliar area), then I do need the GPS - not for accuracy, but
for automated updating of the system, because manual updating for me
is going to be unreliable.
I agree though, this is where APRS has real power, as a mobile
information resource that is able to serve up location based
information (now THAT is something that's only just starting in the
commercial world - ahead of the curve again). Messaging with mobile
hams is also a function that I see as potentially useful, but for
that to happen, we need more people with APRS capability, and using
it in their daily lives, so there's a high probability that a message
sent will be received and acted upon.
73 de VK3JED
http://vkradio.com
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:58:20 -0000
From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!!
To: "Daniel Schultz" <n8fgv(AT)usa.net>, <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <023c01c8e79f$d378e130$0201a8c0(AT)your6bvpxyztoq>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
The people in AMSAT aren't much different from those in the commercial
computer hardware and software industry.
73,
John
KD6OZH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Schultz" <n8fgv(AT)usa.net>
To: <amsat-bb(AT)AMSAT.Org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 21:02 UTC
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!!
> Amsat is not a for-profit corporation with employees who take orders and
> follow directions from management. Amsat's management cannot order anyone
> to
> do anything. It is an all volunteer organization and an ego stroke is the
> only
> reward that people get for their hard work. It has always been well known
> that
> this sort of environment attracts the Type-A prima donnas
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_donna ->"the term often signifies a
> vain,
> obnoxious and temperamental person who, although irritating, cannot be
> done
> without.") In a room full of such people, arguments and fights are not
> uncommon. It has always been this way in Amsat, but perhaps the rapid
> communications of the internet makes it more apparent now than it was in
> the
> past. This too will pass.
>
> As a volunteer organization, Amsat depends on people like you to step
> forward
> and do what needs to be done. If you think you can do a better job, then
> step
> up to the plate and do it. If you don't like the web site or the online
> store
> then come forward and build a better one. If you think you can run the
> organization better than the current management then run for elected
> office.
> If you do none of these things, at least stop complaining about the people
> who
> do.
>
> If you think P3E is the way to go, you are free to send your money to
> Amsat DL
> to fund P3E. (http://www.p3e-satellite.org/index.pl?lang=en_EN )
>
> Do one of three things: Lead, Follow, or get out of the way.
>
> Dan Schultz N8FGV
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:09:21 -0400
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga(AT)usna.edu>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: "'dsp engineer'" <dsp_ee(AT)hotmail.com>, <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <5547BEA152B84587A7F4623A4798DBB8(AT)ewlab.usna.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> My conclusion is that we need to direct ham radio
> toward the 40 to 70 year olds who are less
> interested in the tech end of it and more
> interested in the people end of it.
Amen! We need to get people talking to each other..
> APRS, ... I have yet to find a single use for it.
> APRS, like ham radio, is a low tech solution
> looking for a problem.
Not really. It is a single information resource channel that
links people together so they can find each other in the vast
dimensions of position/time/frequency domains. On the front
panel of your APRS radio you can see everything in ham radio
happening around you no matter where you are.
> Technology passed APRS and Packet radio 10 years ago...
> APRS... are fighting bandwidth [and rates] too low...
No, APRS has plenty of bandwidth. It is not trying to be the
be-all-end-all data channel that everyone gets on their cell
phone. It is the single resource info channel where each person
gets to beacon his present activity in his one-second of air
time to show what he is doing right now, here, on ham radio.
APRS is not an end in itself. It is the common resource channel
where people announce what they are doing elsewhere in ham radio
so others can be alerted and join him if interested, in time,
position, and frequency..
> However, your competition, the commercial carriers
> have you beat on price, availability, and reliability.
If people are thinking ham radio is in competition with
cellphones, I think they miss the hobby. We do it for fun. And
APRS lets us see who is nearby in RF range and what they are
doing and what freq they are on so we can find each other...
> The world is no longer impressed with amateur
> solutions to Telecommunications just as it is no
> longer impressed with using horses for basic
> transportation.
Im sorry you have such a bleak view of the amateur radio hobby.
Those who see amateur radio as being in competition with
commercial giants simply are missing the hobby completely...
Just get a cell phone and Iphone, pay your bills and be an
almost-happy consumer. Such consumers are never happy, because
there is always the next gimic around the corner.. Lots of
folks like to ride horses. Getting there in their case is not
about beating a car. Its about the ride...
So think of APRS as a single continent wide channel to find like
minded people doing something in real time and showing where
they are, what they are doing, and what frequency they are
monitoring. APRS shrinks all the dimensions of unknowns and
helps people find each other.... As you say, to talk and share
the hobby..
See http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/localinfo.html
Bob, WB4APR
> > From: bruninga(AT)usna.edu
> > To: K5GNA(AT)aol.com; amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:03:21 -0400
> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
> >
> > > Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. --
> > > everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications
> > > is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much
> > > universal skills now.
> >
> > Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the
> > greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even
some
> > old-fud adults are learning how to use it..
> >
> > Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and
> > email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10
> > years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using
it
> > or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?
> >
> > You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or
Radio
> > from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS,
> > GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone
should
> > learn how to do this and exercise it during
> > Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any
old
> > TNC and any old radio to do this. See:
> > http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
> >
> > > Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when
> > > there is loss of communications during a disaster,
> > > with newer technology, even that could change.
> >
> > What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to
> > wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be
> > tried and to take hold...
> >
> > > Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing
> > > new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no
> > > one will remember what those letters even stood for.
> >
> > A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that
try
> > something new...
> > And then show it to a kid... <wink>
> >
> > P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and
> > probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this
> > global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10
years
> > ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!
> >
> > >From an old fud..
> > Bob, WB4APR
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those
> of the author.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> satellite program!
> > Subscription settings:
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
________________________________________________________________
_
> Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TA
> GLM_WL_messenger2_072008
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of
> the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> satellite program!
> Subscription settings:
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 3, Issue 352
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