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CX2SA > SATDIG 18.07.08 00:58l 1151 Lines 43597 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!! (David Goncalves)
2. vanishing hams etc (Mr Jeffrey L Ross)
3. Re: Vanishing Hams (John Zaruba Jr)
4. AMSAT-NA, our future (Dave Guimont)
5. Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!! (Ken Ernandes)
6. Re: AMSAT NA (John B. Stephensen)
7. Re: Vanishing Hams (kc6uqh)
8. Re: AMSAT NA (Paul Williamson)
9. Re: Vanishing Hams (Edward Cole)
10. Re: Vanishing Hams (Edward Cole)
11. Re: Vanishing Hams (Ben Jackson)
12. Re: Vanishing Hams (Bruce Bostwick)
13. Re: Vanishing Hams (D. Mynatt)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:50:31 -0400
From: "David Goncalves" <davegoncalves(AT)gmail.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!!
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID:
<efbd6ca10807161850o395ed42eg937ac6a64c2c2a02(AT)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
So much opinion, so little time!
Please, refrain from absolutes, it ruins the conversation.
Dave Goncalves
W1EUJ
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:00:38 -0400
From: "Mr Jeffrey L Ross" <radiooperator(AT)comcast.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] vanishing hams etc
To: "amsat" <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <002b01c8e7b9$90751f60$6801a8c0(AT)hamshackcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
hi folks, fig i would get in on this one, at least say what feel and think
about it, Im waiting with that one fellow till they die off, hi old fuds
that is, some of them anyway,none of them like the shuttle! Won't even move
up to the real world and have a shuttle launch net here. ( I tryed that once
and they tryed to ban me from the local repeater) Just one or two fellows is
all it takes to take the fun out of this hobbie. When I first went to get my
license, the old fart said to me, What do you want? it was just the way he
said it, mean. Ever since I had this feeling about some of the fellows
there that I really don't want to know. I call them grumpy old men. Sure we
need some young blood in our hobbie, and its going to take another way of
gettting them there/here.. Tryed giving my station/time for the ares/races
group, that did not turn out, to many Indian Chiefs and no one knows who is
in charge. (station manager) And the people that are there have been the
head honchos for twenty five years and things won't change. Or the new
people that come are now placed in charge and they know less, let alone how
it makes you feel, being there for years and someone new comes in and takes
charge of you.
We had field day and no one came to our booth. I wonder why. by the way not
many for field day also, Listened to the skywarn net tonight, not many
there no more also. I wonder why. I know why, Its the way people are
acting/treating each other. So everyone needs to think about it, be nice
and pay attention to that amateur code, make sure (others) have fun. And be
nice. :) And I won't even mention the descrimination that I seen.
Vanishing Hams, probley, maybe. but maybe not, if we see our mistakes
and take heed.
and tell others about them like i am here.
kc8gkf
just another middle age ham.
looking here for another topic
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:27:46 -0400
From: John Zaruba Jr <aa2bn(AT)comcast.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: bruninga(AT)usna.edu
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <4D716B4E-06CB-45BC-A4F1-B168E3945626(AT)comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>> ... I would need integrated APRS support, D-STAR/D-PRS
>> capability (so I can do both in the one radio),
>
1. Icom IC-2820
2. TNC-X + HamHUD
or
3. RC-D710
There, all the goodness in one package.
I'm building up my TNC-X now, waiting for a machinist friend to
finish machining a Hammond cast aluminum case for my HamHUD.
Assign one side of the radio for analog APRS and Voice Alert, the
other side of the radio for D-Star and away you go.
What's not to love ;)
73,
John AA2BN
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:06:19 -0700
From: Dave Guimont <dguimon1(AT)san.rr.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, our future
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID:
<20080717040623.ETTO19640.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com(AT)Dave.san.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
My mission has been successful.
The recent diatribes (mine) brought a lot of the people out of the
woodwork. And if the shoe fits, wear it...I am just looking for
information...
Now some facts:
Project Oscar launched AO7 (ssb,cw) 34 years ago, a LEO.
India launched VO52 (ssg. cw) 3 years ago, a LEO.
Both very successful for many qso's, simultaneously, and miraculously
AO7 came back to life.
I can certainly understand that AMSAT-NA cannot afford a
HEO...Hopefully, AMSAT-DL can.
Now the questions (for the Board of Directors, or anyone that has the
answers).
What are our future plans for launching another hamsat?
And when?
If no launch plans are in the mill, what will be done with the funds
we presently have?
For what is the money now being spent??
Why are we in existence??
73, Dave, WB6LLO
dguimon1(AT)san.rr.com
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:42:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Ken Ernandes <n2wwd(AT)mindspring.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!!
To: "Rick Hambly (W2GPS)" <w2gps(AT)cnssys.com>, amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Cc: eu-amsat(AT)yahoogroups.com
Message-ID:
<16273969.1216240949932.JavaMail.root(AT)mswamui-
bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Rick -
I think you're being very gracious. At the risk of being acccused of making
personal attacks, I will say that my personal opinion/perception is that there
are certain individuals who are chronic complainers. I would be curious as to
how many of those make half as much effort toward being part of a solution as
they spend with unproductive complaining.
I have a personal list of those I believe have nothing better to do than
complain and are rarely if ever part of a constructive solution. I would go
so far as to suspect some of these individulas do not even wish AMSAT-NA to
succeed. I delete BB-directed messages from such individuals without ever
reading them. Sorry, but that's just the way it is...
73, Ken Ernandes N2WWD
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Rick Hambly (W2GPS)" <w2gps(AT)cnssys.com>
>Sent: Jul 14, 2008 2:59 PM
>To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
>Cc: eu-amsat(AT)yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!!
>
>Luc,
>
>I am glad you care enough about AMSAT's future to pay attention to events as
>they unfold. It appears that you have misinterpreted recent events, however.
>AMSAT's engineering department is undergoing a reorganization that we hope
>will allow us to better focus on the results our members have been looking
>for and improve cooperation among the development teams. There is nothing
>sinister going on at all.
>
>AMSAT members will be getting more detailed information through the Journal
>and the engineering mailing lists in the coming days and weeks.
>
>Rick
>W2GPS
>AMSAT LM2232
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: amsat-bb-bounces(AT)amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces(AT)amsat.org] On
>Behalf Of Luc Leblanc
>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:22 AM
>To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
>Cc: eu-amsat(AT)yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [amsat-bb] NAMSATE AND EAGLE PROJECT ARE DEAD!!!
>
>
>As usual AMSAT-NA is keeping the crowds unaware and uninformed on AMSAT-BB
>and on purpose...NAMASTE and EAGLE project are from my point of
>view literally dead! For those who are still believing on a HEO made by
>AMSAT-NA forget it they "HALTED" NAMASTE et fired out the EAGLE
>team leaders
>
>Here is some e-mails exchange...
>
>It seems obvious now that AMSAT-NA projects are collapsing NAMASTE is dead
>and EAGLE PROBABLY WILL BE HALTED TOO?????
>SEE BELOW THE FULL EXCHANGE AND PLEASE READ THE THREADS ON:
>http://amsat.org/pipermail/namaste-dev/2008-July/thread.html
>
>Here is an excerpt moving around the "Super duper" AMSAT-NA president on the
>NAMSATE reflector
>
>> At this time, all group leaders on the Eagle project
>> are relieved of their leadership duties.
>
>...
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:40:27 -0000
From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
To: "Luc Leblanc" <lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>, <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Cc: eu-amsat(AT)yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <00ee01c8e794$f1d4cb90$0201a8c0(AT)your6bvpxyztoq>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi Luc,
You're assuming that there is enough money in the combination of all AMSAT
organizations and that each AMSAT has an equal chance of getting a ride into
orbit in all countries. Neither is true. The amateur satellite program needs
external contributors to maintain the type of service that it gave in the
past. There are also legal restrictions in the U.S. as to who can
participate in a program of this type and be allowed to launch on any of the
U.S. rockets -- commercial or government. I don't see the closed circles
that you refer to as AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-DL are able to cooperate on projects
like AO-40 and P3E.
The countries making their first steps into space are very useful for LEOs,
but HEOs require an order of magnitude more energy per pound of transponder
to be put into a stable orbit. The space shuttle is the most expensive
launch vehicle for a HEO and you have to carry more mass in engine and fuel
than on conventional launch vehicles. It was heavily influenced by cold war
requirements so it was a flop commercially.
73,
John
KD6OZH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luc Leblanc" <lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>
To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Cc: <eu-amsat(AT)yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 03:24 UTC
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
> On 16 Jul 2008 at 1:29, John B. Stephensen wrote:
>
>> What most HEO users never fully realized (including me) was that they
>> were
>> the recipients of charity. Now that launches are commercial operations,
>> the
>> AMSATs have to pay the same as everyone else and HEOs are vastly more
>> expensive than LEOs.
>
> How i can repeat the same idea in a different way!
>
> 3 years ago i wrote "there is not enough money available in each AMSAT'S"
> i was speaking for an ONLY ONE international AMSAT to regroup
> all the available funds" Running after too many rabbit will only bring
> empty hands.
>
> As the one repeater in each ham backyard syndrome era we are now facing
> the same trend. The volunteer era is also no more THE SOLUTION our
> club repeater group who was playing retuning rebuilding old commercial
> repeater on the ham bands and having to perform maintenance work on
> a monthly basis became tired to play again and again on the same used
> machine our volunteers where exhausted. THE NEW SOLUTION we buy a
> brand new motorola repeater (3000$ for a 40 members club) Two years now of
> peace and smooth operation our volunteers are now playing around
> SDR radio and DSTAR.
>
> GUIDE FOR AMATEUR HEO SATELLITE LAUNCH.
>
> 1-Put the world-wide resources towards one goal one HEO at a time
> 2-Planned the funding
> A- How much money is needed for a launch
> B-Divide the amount by all the possible contributors
> C-Have al the AMSAT'S organizing their own funding in their own area.
> 3-If some money is missing we will all know why we cannot have a launch
> and this will end up the complaining
> 4-Working in closed circle under our national flags will only divided our
> resources if "Now that launches are commercial operations" we
> will have to govern us accordingly GO COMMERCIAL SELL D'ONT BEG Try to
> have managers and administrators who are familiar with the business
> world not those who rely on charity, or elitism fund raising club, or
> governmental grants.
>
> 5-When the business plan will be attached it is much more easy to seek out
> for major money contributor's.
> 6-Is this goes by having to put a Coke sign on the satellite body or
> having a CD with names of 5$ donors (look at the cube sats supporters)
> 7-Stopped attending hamfest and start to visit universities in promoting
> an HEO project how they can help?
> 8-Look for new countries who are now making their first steps in space
> India, China, Japan
> 9-The space shuttle is now at the end of his planned life is there any
> available space in their last flights to accommodate an HEO of
> 150KG!
> 10-If someone ask me if can managed to put 300 a year in a fund to have an
> HEO launch i think i will be able to save 82 cents per day per
> year but they will have to SELL me the affair...a sound and a well
> attached project.
> 11- If it is possible to reach 6000 individuals 1.8 millions will be
> available per year and in no more than 3 years more than 5 millions
> will be in this fund.
>
> The killing question!
>
> Is the actual leadership is able to drive such program i think not AND IT
> IS THE MAIN PROBLEM a huge structural change is needed as the
> ideas of the base are not listen. Only the leaders ideas are promoted even
> if they are no more up to date as they are getting trailing
> support by few foul mouth it is a vicious circle who fortunately start to
> break up...
>
> AMSAT-NA is facing an obscure future. The last act of mutiny is only the
> tip of the iceberg even if the captain want's to play it down!
> We are could be ugly but not stupid...
>
>
> "-"
>
>
> Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
> Skype VE2DWE
> www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
> WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:06:45 -0700
From: "kc6uqh" <kc6uqh(AT)cox.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: <bruninga(AT)usna.edu>, <K5GNA(AT)aol.com>, <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <00d801c8e7ca$e91cadc0$0200a8c0(AT)kc6uqh>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Amateur Radio Operators are more than operators, they have the skills to
keep thier equipment working and find inovative ways to remain on the air in
times of emergency.
Our youth of today have become operators of electronic toys for thier own
self amusment. The wanting to learn about things technical is considered
anti-social by today's youth.
Either there will be a swing in attitude or we will be entering another dark
age. The efforts of some 60 e mails I received on this subject tonight could
have been better spent on construction of a new antenna or?
Art, KC6UQH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga(AT)usna.edu>
To: <K5GNA(AT)aol.com>; <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:03 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
>> Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. --
>> everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications
>> is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much
>> universal skills now.
>
> Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the
> greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even some
> old-fud adults are learning how to use it..
>
> Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and
> email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10
> years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using it
> or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?
>
> You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or Radio
> from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS,
> GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone should
> learn how to do this and exercise it during
> Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any old
> TNC and any old radio to do this. See:
> http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
>
>> Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when
>> there is loss of communications during a disaster,
>> with newer technology, even that could change.
>
> What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to
> wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be
> tried and to take hold...
>
>> Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing
>> new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no
>> one will remember what those letters even stood for.
>
> A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that try
> something new...
> And then show it to a kid... <wink>
>
> P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and
> probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this
> global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10 years
> ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!
>
>>From an old fud..
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 3230 (20080701) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:52:11 -0700
From: Paul Williamson <kb5mu(AT)amsat.org>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
To: <k7zt(AT)suddenlink.net>
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <a0623090bc4a486f48995(AT)[192.168.0.17]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:34 PM -0500 7/16/08, <k7zt(AT)suddenlink.net> wrote:
>what could possibly be wrong with making the HEO effort an international
undertaking with maximum resources focused on a single goal.
That's also known as "putting all your eggs in one basket". We (the worldwide
AMSAT organizations) did that with AO-40, and that's a big part of the reason
why it has been so long between HEO missions.
HEO missions take a long time to get ready, and they don't last forever even
when they're successful. If you don't have one in the pipeline, there's going
to be a long dry spell before you can launch. In order to keep the HEO
missions flowing, it's necessary to have more than one project going at the
same time, at different stages of development.
>Eagle is so complex and bogged down that I honestly don't see it going
anywhere soon.
As screwed up as our development organization is, engineering is NOT the
bottleneck on Eagle. Simplifying the engineering task will not speed up Eagle.
A launch is, and will be for the foreseeable future, the bottleneck on all HEO
missions. The disarray you see is, in part, a result of the organization
casting about desperately for a way to solve the launching (i.e., funding)
problem.
Simplifying the engineering task could, however, easily cripple the capability
of the mission to have a significant effect on amateur radio. Another weak-
signal big-antenna SSB/CW transponder will not change the world. A highly
optimized digital small-dish system that does an excellent job with high-
quality voice and modest-rate data, on the other hand, just might. It's a
challenge well worth pursuing.
Some people in AMSAT management think that a system like that might actually
yield a solution to the launch problem, by impressing the US government with
the potential utility of the system. I am skeptical, but I don't have a better
idea.
> The outlook for HEO is very grim, unless we pool resources (both financial
and intellictual) set some milestones and manage to those.
The outlook is grim regardless of any resource pooling, unless we find a way
to fund a launch. Make no mistake: pooling our paupers' financial resources
won't fund a launch.
Managing to milestones is all well and good, once enough is known to set
sensible milestones. We're not there yet on Eagle. Any milestones we wrote
down now would be fantasy.
73 -Paul
kb5mu(AT)amsat.org
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:09:14 -0800
From: Edward Cole <kl7uw(AT)acsalaska.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: K5GNA(AT)aol.com, amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <200807170609.m6H69EmQ038871(AT)hermes.acsalaska.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Although we dread the thought, ham radio may be dated and only last
out until the last of the baby boomer's generation. And maybe with
the change in where the forefront of technology is going that is how
it must be. In time it appears all communications will be
digital. RF designers might be a little harder to find. Even that
is going up to the millimeter bands...not really very suited to
homebrew construction. Ham radio may just evolve from technical whiz
kids making coils out of oatmeal boxes (those are disappearing too)
to mere communicators that know little about the technology inside.
I do believe (hope) that ham radio continues for the remainder of my
lifetime as it has been central in my life interest (both hobby and
profession). Another 20-30 years? Or will quantum communicators
obsolete us in a shorter time span?
Its been a fun ride (my 50th year as a ham)!
73 Ed - KL7UW (ex AL7EB, K8MWA)
At 06:52 AM 7/16/2008, K5GNA(AT)aol.com wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>
>I read the article yesterday that Frank had referred to and forwarded it to
>a few friends.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I received this URL today. Read number 16.
>
>_http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-america?i_
>(http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-america?i)
>cid=100214839x1205495530x1200282778
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>Every time I go to an annual swapfest, the average age of attendees is one
>year older. We need to spend some time reaching out to a younger
>generation or
>#16 on the list will come true.
>
>Many years ago, it was in the national interest to have a cadre of trained
>radio operators. Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. --
>everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications is done with a
>keyboard or microphone -- pretty much universal skills now.
>
>As the article mentions, the airwaves are valuable property and we could
>lose them. Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when there
>is loss of
>communications during a disaster, with newer technology, even that
>could change.
>
>A few years ago at the 2002 AMSAT meeting in Ft. Worth, Tony, AA2TX was
>giving a talk on his antennas made from cardboard boxes and
>aluminum foil. There
>was a grade school class in attendance with their teacher. When the talk
>was over, the kids swarmed over the boxes and aluminum foil to make antennas
>with great enthusiasm. Very inspiring -- this is the kind of
>reaching out we
>need.
>
>Instead of our self serving pursuit of DXCC, WAS, VUCC, WAC and others,
>maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing new Hams into the
>community. Otherwise, someday, no one will remember what those
>letters even stood for.
>
>
>73 & TNX,
>
>Bob
>K5GNA
>
>
>
>
>
>**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
>scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
>(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:20:34 -0800
From: Edward Cole <kl7uw(AT)acsalaska.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <200807170620.m6H6KYLn052991(AT)iris.acsalaska.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
An interesting viewpoint. You may have hit on a change in how people
are coming to ham radio. Many of us did get our start as teenagers
and I did have the challenges you mention. I have had periods of
more or less activity; more or less time/money for it. I wonder how
old you were when you became a ham 28-years ago? Are you an example
of your theory?
But the statistics do show a decline in total numbers in the US and
the average age is advancing steadily which does seem to imply that
we are lacking a regular influx of younger newcomers to replace the
OM's (we are really resembling that).
But perhaps the demographics are shifting to this becoming a
retirement hobby vs a life-long one. Time will tell!
Ed - KL7UW
At 07:35 AM 7/16/2008, John Geiger wrote:
>I was licensed in 1980 and I have been hearing how ham radio is dying for
>the past 28 years. So far, it is still here and doing better than ever.
>Over these 28 years, this dying hobby that is in danger of losing all of its
>frequencies had been given 5 new bands (60m, 30m, 17, 12m, and 33cm) and has
>lost small parts of 2 bands (220-222mhz and 1215-1240mhz). We adjusted very
>well to those loses.
>
>One reason we may not see as many young hams at hamfests is due to the
>internet. Those of us pre-Algore-internet invention hams relied on hamfests
>to buy and sell equipment and see new rigs. That is no longer needed as you
>have ebay, QTH.COM, eham.net, and QRZ.COM as 24 hour a day hamfests where
>you don't have to pay $4 a gallon for gas, plus extra for unhealthy hamfest
>food.
>They don't appreciate hamfests because they really don't need them as we do.
>
>Also, we have seemed to sink into this mentality that everyone gets licensed
>as a kid and stays licensed there entire life. Therefore, if you don't see
>many young hams, it means that no one is becoming a ham and we are losing
>operators. Untrue! Many people get licensed as a retirement hobby or empty
>nest syndrome hobby. These are perfect people to market the hobby to. They
>have plenty of disposible income to spend on the hobby and lots of time to
>operate.
>
>As someone who was licensed at age 13, there are somethings that suck about
>being a young ham. You don't have much money to spend on rigs and antennas.
>You live in your parent's house so you are at their mercy for what antennas
>you can put up. You have school and homework to compete for your time. You
>go to college which greatly limits funds and time, and then you go into the
>raising a family (I am there now) which greatly limits funds again, as well
>as operating time.
>
>So, I think the hobby is doing just fine. We just need to get over this
>obsession that only kids should become new hams. In my area most of the new
>licensees are 40 or over, but we are bringing in plenty to replace those who
>become SKs.
>
>73s John AA5JG
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <K5GNA(AT)aol.com>
>To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 2:52 PM
>Subject: [amsat-bb] Vanishing Hams
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> > I read the article yesterday that Frank had referred to and forwarded it
>to
> > a few friends.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > I received this URL today. Read number 16.
> >
> > _http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-america?i_
> > (http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-america?i)
> > cid=100214839x1205495530x1200282778
> >
> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > Every time I go to an annual swapfest, the average age of attendees is one
> > year older. We need to spend some time reaching out to a younger
>generation or
> > #16 on the list will come true.
> >
> > Many years ago, it was in the national interest to have a cadre of
>trained
> > radio operators. Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS,
>etc. --
> > everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications is done with a
> > keyboard or microphone -- pretty much universal skills now.
> >
> > As the article mentions, the airwaves are valuable property and we could
> > lose them. Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when there is loss
>of
> > communications during a disaster, with newer technology, even that could
>change.
> >
> > A few years ago at the 2002 AMSAT meeting in Ft. Worth, Tony, AA2TX was
> > giving a talk on his antennas made from cardboard boxes and aluminum
>foil. There
> > was a grade school class in attendance with their teacher. When the talk
> > was over, the kids swarmed over the boxes and aluminum foil to make
>antennas
> > with great enthusiasm. Very inspiring -- this is the kind of reaching
>out we
> > need.
> >
> > Instead of our self serving pursuit of DXCC, WAS, VUCC, WAC and others,
> > maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing new Hams into the
> > community. Otherwise, someday, no one will remember what those letters
>even stood for.
> >
> >
> > 73 & TNX,
> >
> > Bob
> > K5GNA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
>music
> > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
> > (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:38:55 -0400
From: Ben Jackson <bbj(AT)innismir.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: kc6uqh <kc6uqh(AT)cox.net>
Cc: K5GNA(AT)aol.com, amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <487F2F4F.1040101(AT)innismir.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
kc6uqh wrote:
| Our youth of today have become operators of electronic toys for thier own
| self amusment.
No, the technology available to youths today has become so pervasive
that the majority of non-techies is using it. There are still the geeks
and nerds sitting in the back room playing with technological toys, they
just into Ham Radio. They think Ham Radio is a technological dead end
and a just a bunch of old guys talking to each other about their medical
problems. Sadly, for the most part, they're right.
| The wanting to learn about things technical is considered
| anti-social by today's youth.
<tounge firmly in cheek>As opposed to the good old days when all the "in
crowd" had Ham Radio licenses. Back in the 60s and 70s technology was
embraced by everyone! In high school the quarterback won the big game,
then headed back home to work some DX on 40M. </tounge firmly in cheek>
- --
Ben Jackson - N1WBV - New Bedford, MA
bbj <at> innismir.net - http://www.innismir.net/
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:36:09 -0500
From: Bruce Bostwick <lihan161051(AT)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <585BAF6B-1AC7-463C-A68E-CE5D3D1BA760(AT)sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
And they don't see that as a wide-open opportunity to get involved in
it and leave their mark on it in a big way. Which is short-sighted of
them, IMHO, but they do let their perception of the "ham radio
culture" get in the way of the more fundamental thing, which is free
spectrum to experiment with and find new ways to use. The trick is
showing them how ham radio poses many of the same challenges they love
to tackle on the cutting edge of other sorts of open-source systems,
and (with a few exceptions in the seedier parts of some HF bands) the
culture is a secondary concern at best ..
On Jul 17, 2008, at 6:38 AM, Ben Jackson wrote:
> No, the technology available to youths today has become so pervasive
> that the majority of non-techies is using it. There are still the
> geeks
> and nerds sitting in the back room playing with technological toys,
> they
> just into Ham Radio. They think Ham Radio is a technological dead end
> and a just a bunch of old guys talking to each other about their
> medical
> problems. Sadly, for the most part, they're right.
"Almost nothing that trickles down is fit to consume." -- Davidson Loehr
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:19:05 -0600
From: "D. Mynatt" <dave(AT)mynatt.biz>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: "Edward Cole" <kl7uw(AT)acsalaska.net>, "AMSAT-BB"
<amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <B413A0988FAE48CA8A89233E120B57EA(AT)compaq>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
That's right too. The 'nerds' are still with us, just that percentage-wise
they are fewer. IMHO and in the opinion of others in this discussion, we
need to get away from rag chewing and into making the hobby a way for new
information to be shared. Humans need 'newness' and that's what we need to
spark the younger generation.
Someone earlier mentioned that cost is a problem to entry and that's why the
hobby has shifted to an upwards age. Right on. That could change if we get
involved at the school level, do science (at least data analysis), and look
for ways to share things. Americans in general don't like to share, but we
must overcome that aversion and build antennas, access points and such and
then have real 'work' being done; the kids will follow that. They love
remote robotics, imaging challenges and things like that.
We can build hobby 'access points' so that anyone could internet in and
catch a satellite transmission. Receive only, of course. Most colleges and
some HS have large dishes from years past and they are free for the taking.
I'm building a 3m dish into an access point and allowing students to connect
and watch the satellite data stream. MANY groups are working things like
this; Delphi via RASCAL software is one example we could follow.
Besides, what's the *real* difference between an access point for internet
that the kids love, and a Field Day?
Mark Spencer from ARRL is in charge of the Teacher's Institute. He teaches
about 'wireless' technology and now, in a stroke of genius, also has a
segment on robotics. If we build a program so that it reaches the teachers
and is about science -like imaging, data extraction, etc- we'll come back
because it will be a challenge to do again. Getting them into helping us
build an 'access point' will do this, as will sharing satellite
data/information and not rag chewing.
The vision is simple; AMSAT sponsors a series of antennas located at
colleges or someone's yard/community location, with slew capability, manned
by AMSAT volunteers, receiving data and images from the ASMO program, making
software free, allowing anyone with an internet connection to watch. Kids
join because they want to be the ones with the hands on the controls (i.e.
antenna slew controls) , using math and science to calculate things, and
watching and interfacing with data/image streams. It will work. At least I
think it will and I'm putting my energy into it.
Otherwise AMSAT and all other hobbies will be mired in an older age.
Literally. And what will AMSAT be then?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Cole" <kl7uw(AT)acsalaska.net>
To: <amsat-bb(AT)AMSAT.Org>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:20 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
> An interesting viewpoint. You may have hit on a change in how people
> are coming to ham radio. Many of us did get our start as teenagers
> and I did have the challenges you mention. I have had periods of
> more or less activity; more or less time/money for it. I wonder how
> old you were when you became a ham 28-years ago? Are you an example
> of your theory?
>
> But the statistics do show a decline in total numbers in the US and
> the average age is advancing steadily which does seem to imply that
> we are lacking a regular influx of younger newcomers to replace the
> OM's (we are really resembling that).
>
> But perhaps the demographics are shifting to this becoming a
> retirement hobby vs a life-long one. Time will tell!
>
> Ed - KL7UW
>
> At 07:35 AM 7/16/2008, John Geiger wrote:
>>I was licensed in 1980 and I have been hearing how ham radio is dying for
>>the past 28 years. So far, it is still here and doing better than ever.
>>Over these 28 years, this dying hobby that is in danger of losing all of
>>its
>>frequencies had been given 5 new bands (60m, 30m, 17, 12m, and 33cm) and
>>has
>>lost small parts of 2 bands (220-222mhz and 1215-1240mhz). We adjusted
>>very
>>well to those loses.
>>
>>One reason we may not see as many young hams at hamfests is due to the
>>internet. Those of us pre-Algore-internet invention hams relied on
>>hamfests
>>to buy and sell equipment and see new rigs. That is no longer needed as
>>you
>>have ebay, QTH.COM, eham.net, and QRZ.COM as 24 hour a day hamfests where
>>you don't have to pay $4 a gallon for gas, plus extra for unhealthy
>>hamfest
>>food.
>>They don't appreciate hamfests because they really don't need them as we
>>do.
>>
>>Also, we have seemed to sink into this mentality that everyone gets
>>licensed
>>as a kid and stays licensed there entire life. Therefore, if you don't
>>see
>>many young hams, it means that no one is becoming a ham and we are losing
>>operators. Untrue! Many people get licensed as a retirement hobby or
>>empty
>>nest syndrome hobby. These are perfect people to market the hobby to. They
>>have plenty of disposible income to spend on the hobby and lots of time to
>>operate.
>>
>>As someone who was licensed at age 13, there are somethings that suck
>>about
>>being a young ham. You don't have much money to spend on rigs and
>>antennas.
>>You live in your parent's house so you are at their mercy for what
>>antennas
>>you can put up. You have school and homework to compete for your time.
>>You
>>go to college which greatly limits funds and time, and then you go into
>>the
>>raising a family (I am there now) which greatly limits funds again, as
>>well
>>as operating time.
>>
>>So, I think the hobby is doing just fine. We just need to get over this
>>obsession that only kids should become new hams. In my area most of the
>>new
>>licensees are 40 or over, but we are bringing in plenty to replace those
>>who
>>become SKs.
>>
>>73s John AA5JG
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <K5GNA(AT)aol.com>
>>To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 2:52 PM
>>Subject: [amsat-bb] Vanishing Hams
>>
>>
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> >
>> > I read the article yesterday that Frank had referred to and forwarded
>> > it
>>to
>> > a few friends.
>> >
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > I received this URL today. Read number 16.
>> >
>> > _http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-
america?i_
>> > (http://www.walletpop.com/specials/top-25-things-vanishing-from-
america?i)
>> > cid=100214839x1205495530x1200282778
>> >
>> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>> >
>> > Every time I go to an annual swapfest, the average age of attendees is
>> > one
>> > year older. We need to spend some time reaching out to a younger
>>generation or
>> > #16 on the list will come true.
>> >
>> > Many years ago, it was in the national interest to have a cadre of
>>trained
>> > radio operators. Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS,
>>etc. --
>> > everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications is done
>> > with a
>> > keyboard or microphone -- pretty much universal skills now.
>> >
>> > As the article mentions, the airwaves are valuable property and we
>> > could
>> > lose them. Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when there is
>> > loss
>>of
>> > communications during a disaster, with newer technology, even that
>> > could
>>change.
>> >
>> > A few years ago at the 2002 AMSAT meeting in Ft. Worth, Tony, AA2TX was
>> > giving a talk on his antennas made from cardboard boxes and aluminum
>>foil. There
>> > was a grade school class in attendance with their teacher. When the
>> > talk
>> > was over, the kids swarmed over the boxes and aluminum foil to make
>>antennas
>> > with great enthusiasm. Very inspiring -- this is the kind of reaching
>>out we
>> > need.
>> >
>> > Instead of our self serving pursuit of DXCC, WAS, VUCC, WAC and
>> > others,
>> > maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing new Hams into the
>> > community. Otherwise, someday, no one will remember what those letters
>>even stood for.
>> >
>> >
>> > 73 & TNX,
>> >
>> > Bob
>> > K5GNA
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
>>music
>> > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
>> > (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> > author.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > program!
>> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 3, Issue 353
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