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CX2SA > SATDIG 18.07.08 00:58l 953 Lines 35292 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: AMSAT NA (Luc Leblanc)
2. Re: Vanishing Hams (Luc Leblanc)
3. Re: Vanishing Hams (Dave hartzell)
4. Re: AMSAT NA (Joe)
5. Re: HEO Launch Costs (i8cvs)
6. Re: Vanishing Hams (Joe)
7. Re: AMSAT NA (Michael Tondee)
8. Re: HEO Launch Costs (George Henry)
9. Re: Vanishing Hams (Bruce Bostwick)
10. Re: Vanishing Hams (John B. Stephensen)
11. Torture (ANTHONY JAPHA)
12. Re: AMSAT NA (John B. Stephensen)
13. Re: Vanishing Hams (Bruce Bostwick)
14. Re: Torture (Joe)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:32:55 -0400
From: Luc Leblanc <lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <487EE797.19230.4BC5EE1(AT)lucleblanc6.videotron.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 16 Jul 2008 at 22:40, John B. Stephensen wrote:
> Hi Luc,
>
> You're assuming that there is enough money in the combination of all AMSAT
> organizations and that each AMSAT has an equal chance of getting a ride into
> orbit in all countries.
No You get me wrong here if we regroup all the funding sources in one
international satellite launching fund where each AMSAT'S group will
be in charge of promoting their own country funding structure towards one goal
it is possible to accumulate enough money for a launch. Not
a launch per country but all the country for a launch eg: P3E
If ISS is too expensive could be as the VO-52 launch where India provide the
launcher another country can be a part of the launching
solution. When i refer to closed circle there is a lot of individual satellite
project running at the same time it was could be the trend
of the last decade but no more as the launch ride seems to be out of reach
from an amateur stand point.
with the present AMSAT-NA conflictual personality crisis it seems obvious if
we want to have an HEO soon in space AMSAT-DL is the most
advanced project. I know MANY amsat's already donate funds but is it not logic
in 2008 to focus all the available resources towards one
goal instead of spreading our efforts?
Now for the complaining critics or for those who cannot stand the others
opinion it is normal that something can go wrong failed or
collapse, speaking about it discussing about it will never change the reality
of a problematic situation. The i am always right syndrome or
the never admit your fault culture can be a nationwide trend but if you read
about marketing when a client is satisfied he will tell it to
2 others but when he's not satisfied he will tell it to 10 others. Is it not
the time for AMSAT-NA TO LOOK AT THEIR MEMBERS AS THEIR
CLIENTS?
YES i know WE ARE HAM'S and HAM'S are volunteers but what was true in the
Henry Percy Maxim time is no more true. In 2008 money speak much
more louder and if AMSAT-NA does not deeply change his approach they are on a
crashing course.
I wrote since 3 years now that the amateur satellite business is not a cheap
one if we want to get results we will have to take out A LOT
OF MONEY from our pocket. Are we ready to do that? Bad time with the gaz at 4$
a gallon (30% more here...) and a mortgage crisis down the
border. But we will have to get the money one way or another if we want to
have an HEO
How much a launching campaing cost 5 millions? OK turned around and mount a
funding structures how many world-wide contributors are
available 6000 7000 10000? what the national association can do to support a
launching campaign ARRL RAC REF RSGB JARL? Is it possible a 5$
membership fee can be added to their annual membership tarif?
Yes it is a revolutionary concept it take's a lot of work but what is the the
purpose of the AMSAT-NA section coorrdinators? Could be
assigning a new promoting task in searching for funds in their own regional
amateur radio clubs will be the spark who will ignite them?
If within a group or a country someone cannot express his or her opinion
freely it is as a former air force general says when he was
commenting on a new airplane model who was loosing his wheel on take off
"There is surely something wrong on a plane who his loosing his
wheels"
The quote of the day
"One day an old man told me i'm old but i still can raise my foot at the
height of an asshole!"
P.S. The old man was not an AMSAT-NA member should i ask him to join Mr
Hambly?
"-"
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Skype VE2DWE
www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:47:27 -0400
From: Luc Leblanc <lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: amsat-bb(AT)AMSAT.Org
Message-ID: <487EEAFF.4248.4C9AD70(AT)lucleblanc6.videotron.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
The kids you are trying to impress with ham radio in general and APRS in
specific just roll their eyes and go back to their iPhones and
PC's.
After all, ham radio is another name for AMATEUR radio. The world is no
longer impressed with amateur solutions to Telecommunications just
as it is no longer impressed with using horses for basic transportation.
>
> Tim AA6DQ
I agree and i don't see how NAMASTE will change this reality. For the young
folk's at the Hamfest they are often coming with their grand
father who probably keep them on week end while their parents take's a
break...
Is amateur radio is a senior hobby?
"-"
Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Skype VE2DWE
www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:15:27 -0700
From: "Dave hartzell" <hartzell(AT)gmail.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: "Edward Cole" <kl7uw(AT)acsalaska.net>
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID:
<1c096fd70807170915rfab4e32t3ea9354bc0cab37e(AT)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi Ed-
Interesting point-of-view. I am a "younger ham" (e.g. 33 years old)
and I have been around since I was 17. What got me involved was a
club reaching out to the youth, and making them interested in the
value of the hobby.
The current amateur clubs and organizations I am with that actually DO
reach-out to the youth population are usually successful at generating
interest. I do what I can to reach into the university clubs, and go
to events that have younger people, especially if there is a
science/engineering "twist" to the event.
The great thing is, at the same time I am trying to mentor younger
folks, I am still being mentored by great guys (AJ6T, AD6IW, and
yourself included through emails and your public works). There is so
much collective knowledge out there!
73,
Dave
AF6KD (ex n0tgd)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Edward Cole <kl7uw(AT)acsalaska.net> wrote:
> I do believe (hope) that ham radio continues for the remainder of my
> lifetime as it has been central in my life interest (both hobby and
> profession). Another 20-30 years? Or will quantum communicators
> obsolete us in a shorter time span?
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:34:18 -0500
From: Joe <nss(AT)mwt.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
To: Paul Williamson <kb5mu(AT)amsat.org>
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <487F748A.8050205(AT)mwt.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Hi All
LEO,
HEO,
Geosyncrous (sp?)
Ok, how difficult is that weird orbit that a few of the Russian Birds
had, called something like Molylna, or something like that? They
semed awesome and the best of both worlds,
Joe
Paul Williamson wrote:
>At 12:34 PM -0500 7/16/08, <k7zt(AT)suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>what could possibly be wrong with making the HEO effort an international
undertaking with maximum resources focused on a single goal.
>>
>>
>
>That's also known as "putting all your eggs in one basket". We (the worldwide
AMSAT organizations) did that with AO-40, and that's a big part of the reason
why it has been so long between HEO missions.
>
>HEO missions take a long time to get ready, and they don't last forever even
when they're successful. If you don't have one in the pipeline, there's going
to be a long dry spell before you can launch. In order to keep the HEO
missions flowing, it's necessary to have more than one project going at the
same time, at different stages of development.
>
>
>
>>Eagle is so complex and bogged down that I honestly don't see it going
anywhere soon.
>>
>>
>
>As screwed up as our development organization is, engineering is NOT the
bottleneck on Eagle. Simplifying the engineering task will not speed up Eagle.
A launch is, and will be for the foreseeable future, the bottleneck on all HEO
missions. The disarray you see is, in part, a result of the organization
casting about desperately for a way to solve the launching (i.e., funding)
problem.
>
>Simplifying the engineering task could, however, easily cripple the
capability of the mission to have a significant effect on amateur radio.
Another weak-signal big-antenna SSB/CW transponder will not change the world.
A highly optimized digital small-dish system that does an excellent job with
high-quality voice and modest-rate data, on the other hand, just might. It's a
challenge well worth pursuing.
>
>Some people in AMSAT management think that a system like that might actually
yield a solution to the launch problem, by impressing the US government with
the potential utility of the system. I am skeptical, but I don't have a better
idea.
>
>
>
>> The outlook for HEO is very grim, unless we pool resources (both financial
and intellictual) set some milestones and manage to those.
>>
>>
>
>The outlook is grim regardless of any resource pooling, unless we find a way
to fund a launch. Make no mistake: pooling our paupers' financial resources
won't fund a launch.
>
>Managing to milestones is all well and good, once enough is known to set
sensible milestones. We're not there yet on Eagle. Any milestones we wrote
down now would be fantasy.
>
>73 -Paul
>kb5mu(AT)amsat.org
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:13:42 +0200
From: "i8cvs" <domenico.i8cvs(AT)tin.it>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: HEO Launch Costs
To: "AMSAT-BB" <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>, "Dave Guimont"
<dguimon1(AT)san.rr.com>, "Luc Leblanc"
<lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>, "John
B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002e01c8e828$1556b900$0201a8c0(AT)tin.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
----- Original Message -----
From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net>
To: "Luc Leblanc" <lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>; "Dave Guimont"
<dguimon1(AT)san.rr.com>
Cc: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:00 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] HEO Launch Costs
> At Ham Radio 2008 the AMSAT-DL P3E update included the statement that "the
> cost quoted by Arianespace for the launch of P3E is outside the budget of
> AMSAT-DL."
>
> 73,
>
> John
> KD6OZH
Hi John, KD6OZH
Even if the cost quoted by Arianespace for the launch of P3E is outside the
budged of AMSAT-DL I am confident that they will find the strategy and the
policy to get it into orbit because P3E will carry the X band transponder
that has been designed to test the possibility to use the X band for the
Mars probe P5A and many scientific Institutions are interested in P5A
In the following paper written for P5A
http://www.amsat-dl.org/p5a/p5a-to-mars.pdf
Doctor Karl Meinzer, DJ4ZC writes:
"Such a mission requires money which can certainly not be raised from
AMSAT or from amateur radio. Ho-wever, since such a project finds
interest for many reasons from other institutions, and the ability to
finance such a mission appears to be a smaller problem, if it remains in the
scope of customary AMSAT projects."
http://ticket-to-mars.org/en_EN/mission.html
In my opinion if the ability to finance a P5A mission appears to be a
smaller problem it seems to me that to finance a P3E launch should be
not impossible with the help of the scientific Institutions +Arianespace
and the amateur community.
The good policy and strategy of AMSAT-DL was to include a X band
experiment into P3E wich is vital to test the ability to use the X band
for P5A and many scientific Institution like Bockum are interested in
P5A
If P5A becomes a reality in the future many amateur stations will cooperate
to collect telemetry from the Mars probe and so our amateur contribution to
the scientific Institutions will pay the effort to have P3E launched for the
rest of the amateur satellite communications.
It seems to me that P3E and P5A are based both on a scientific and amateur
interest because they are casted over a common solid pillar that make
happy at the same time scientist people and the amateurs community.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:46:58 -0500
From: Joe <nss(AT)mwt.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: Dave hartzell <hartzell(AT)gmail.com>
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <487F7782.5070008(AT)mwt.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
That's where programs like ours,
http://www.qsl.net/wb9sbd/educators.html
Near Space Sciences
Come in handy! The poor mans space program!
It's a blast getting schoold involved in a flight.
here is a link to the last flight we did with a school,
http://www.qsl.net/wb9sbd/nss-45.html
The page isn't done yet, but these programs are perfect ways to get
young people interested.
Joe WB9SBD
Dave hartzell wrote:
>Hi Ed-
>
>Interesting point-of-view. I am a "younger ham" (e.g. 33 years old)
>and I have been around since I was 17. What got me involved was a
>club reaching out to the youth, and making them interested in the
>value of the hobby.
>
>The current amateur clubs and organizations I am with that actually DO
>reach-out to the youth population are usually successful at generating
>interest. I do what I can to reach into the university clubs, and go
>to events that have younger people, especially if there is a
>science/engineering "twist" to the event.
>
>The great thing is, at the same time I am trying to mentor younger
>folks, I am still being mentored by great guys (AJ6T, AD6IW, and
>yourself included through emails and your public works). There is so
>much collective knowledge out there!
>
>73,
>
>Dave
>AF6KD (ex n0tgd)
>
>On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Edward Cole <kl7uw(AT)acsalaska.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I do believe (hope) that ham radio continues for the remainder of my
>>lifetime as it has been central in my life interest (both hobby and
>>profession). Another 20-30 years? Or will quantum communicators
>>obsolete us in a shorter time span?
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:51:32 -0400
From: "Michael Tondee" <mat_62(AT)netcommander.com>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <010701c8e835$c0108d00$6500a8c0(AT)w4hij1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
As I see it, Paul's statement is the bottom line when it comes to the future
of HEO's. In my mind it's highly conceivable that P3E will be completed and
ready to go, yet left languishing in storage somewhere while AMSAT-DL
struggles to find a way to launch it. That's why I said the AMSAT NA vision
statement seemed all wet . It's midway through 2008 and someone honestly
thinks we can "deploy high earth orbit satellite systems that offer daily
coverage by 2009 and continuous coverage by 2012" ??? Reality check folks!
Even if you could engineer and build the birds overnight, it seems highly
unlikely you would get them in orbit by then.
I hope I'm wrong...I really do. Meantime, we'd better hope for more
projects like Delfi C-3 and Kiwi-sat and maybe a resurrection of FO-29.
Heck, as long as we are being as unrealistic as the vision statement, let's
hope for a miraculous ressurection of AO-40 as well!
73,
Michael W4HIJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Williamson" <kb5mu(AT)amsat.org>
To: <k7zt(AT)suddenlink.net>
Cc: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:52 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
> As screwed up as our development organization is, engineering is NOT the
> bottleneck on Eagle. Simplifying the engineering task will not speed up
> Eagle. A launch is, and will be for the foreseeable future, the bottleneck
> on all HEO missions. The disarray you see is, in part, a result of the
> organization casting about desperately for a way to solve the launching
> (i.e., funding) problem.
> 73 -Paul
> kb5mu(AT)amsat.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Henry <ka3hsw(AT)att.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: HEO Launch Costs
To: AMSAT <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <790877.38552.qm(AT)web83804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I've got it!!!
Let's invest $100,000 in Lotto (Mega Millions or
whatever) tickets and fund a launch with our winnings!
(Guess the odds aren't quite THAT good....... too
bad!)
73,
George, KA3HSW
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:08:29 -0500
From: Bruce Bostwick <lihan161051(AT)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <E7627164-83D3-4360-AC6B-376C3605319F(AT)sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
To provide a little bit of perspective .. in the late 1800's and early
1900's, the bleeding-edge techie nerds ran the telegraph systems.
Most of them were young and very intelligent and highly creative, and
worked out a lot of very elegant solutions to what at the time were
fairly serious communication challenges. And they did it all with
batteries, code keys, and long runs of wire.
Thomas A. Edison was one of those nerds. Enough said. :)
It seems to me that a lot of the ham culture got into the habit of
thinking of the early tech as good enough to get by, and things like
CW using Morse that were bleeding-edge tech in the spark and early CW
era became "traditional" practice over the next several decades, which
kind of got away from the point of ham radio, "advancing the radio
art". (And there are some corners of the ham world that still hold
onto "tradition" in various ways.) HF packet, APRS, PSK31, and the
newer digital modes have "advanced the art" in small increments, but
there's a lot of room for other sorts of thinking outside the box.
(Especially with the radios built for PSK31 that are basically
wideband SSB transceivers .. consider that connecting one of those
transceivers to a sound card gives you direct software-defined access
to that segment of spectrum, which is a nearly limitless medium to
explore, and PSK31 is only one tiny corner of that world, so far.
That may not be as exciting to the "traditional" folks as it should
be, by all rights, to the open-source code guys..) There's a lot of
unexplored territory out there.
On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:19 AM, D. Mynatt wrote:
> That's right too. The 'nerds' are still with us, just that
> percentage-wise
> they are fewer. IMHO and in the opinion of others in this
> discussion, we
> need to get away from rag chewing and into making the hobby a way
> for new
> information to be shared. Humans need 'newness' and that's what we
> need to
> spark the younger generation.
"Good, 'cause, you know, we want to report that the country's a lot
stranger than it was a year ago." -- Toby Ziegler
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:10:09 -0000
From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: "kc6uqh" <kc6uqh(AT)cox.net>, <bruninga(AT)usna.edu>, <K5GNA(AT)aol.com>,
<amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <03a901c8e838$59d14a40$0201a8c0(AT)your6bvpxyztoq>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Wanting to learn about things technical was considered anti-social in the
1950's and 1960's so that hasn't changed.
73,
John
KD6OZH
----- Original Message -----
From: "kc6uqh" <kc6uqh(AT)cox.net>
To: <bruninga(AT)usna.edu>; <K5GNA(AT)aol.com>; <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 05:06 UTC
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
> Amateur Radio Operators are more than operators, they have the skills to
> keep thier equipment working and find inovative ways to remain on the air
> in
> times of emergency.
>
> Our youth of today have become operators of electronic toys for thier own
> self amusment. The wanting to learn about things technical is considered
> anti-social by today's youth.
>
> Either there will be a swing in attitude or we will be entering another
> dark
> age. The efforts of some 60 e mails I received on this subject tonight
> could
> have been better spent on construction of a new antenna or?
>
> Art, KC6UQH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga(AT)usna.edu>
> To: <K5GNA(AT)aol.com>; <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:03 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
>
>
>>> Today, with CB, Cell Phones, cordless phones, FRS, etc. --
>>> everyone is a radio operator. Now, military communications
>>> is done with a keyboard or microphone -- pretty much
>>> universal skills now.
>>
>> Do not overlook how kids use key-pad text-messaging as the
>> greatest revolution in communications of all time... Even some
>> old-fud adults are learning how to use it..
>>
>> Then consider that APRS has had global text-messaging (and
>> email) via the keypad of the D7 and D700 radios for over 10
>> years now, yet how many old-fuds ever even considered using it
>> or introduced this exciting new capability to their kids?
>>
>> You can even send text-messages or emails from your HT or Radio
>> from anywhere on earth via any of the APRS satellites (ISS,
>> GO-32, PCSAT-1, etc)... We even suggested that everyone should
>> learn how to do this and exercise it during
>> Satellite-Simulated-Emergency-Tests. You can even use any old
>> TNC and any old radio to do this. See:
>> http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
>>
>>> Although the Amateur Radio Community shines when
>>> there is loss of communications during a disaster,
>>> with newer technology, even that could change.
>>
>> What is hard in ham radio is "change". We basically have to
>> wait for some ops to die in order for some new things to be
>> tried and to take hold...
>>
>>> Maybe the ARRL needs to sponsor an award for bringing
>>> new Hams into the community. Otherwise, someday, no
>>> one will remember what those letters even stood for.
>>
>> A good start might be to sponsor an award for old fuds that try
>> something new...
>> And then show it to a kid... <wink>
>>
>> P.S. Only about 2% of ham radio operators use APRS, and
>> probably only 10% of them (0.2% of all hams) have tried this
>> global text messaging (or email) feature. Yet, even 10 years
>> ago, and ahead of its time we had it in Ham Radio!
>>
>>>From an old fud..
>> Bob, WB4APR
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 3230 (20080701) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:29:12 -0400
From: "ANTHONY JAPHA" <tjjapha(AT)earthlink.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Torture
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <380-220087417182912921(AT)earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Bird Admirers,
I've been reading the bb and feel like I'm emerging from a torture chamber.
(That can't really be the case because torture is illegal here--or is it?)
We have serious problems as an organization, though it's tough to be specific
because the info we're given on the subjects closest to our hearts has been so
woefully inadequate. From the viewpoint of a long time AMSAT member (LM183)
that seems indisputable. It's possible that a great deal of this
unpleasantness could have been avoided if the folks who are aware of the facts
would have made them widely available.
The membership is entitled to know quickly when important things change,
whether that's a change in approach to getting a new bird up, a fundamental
change in design philosophy for a new bird, financial difficulties, or a
significant personnel change. We've been given next to nothing, and naturally
that breeds discomfort, to say the least. NO MORE PABLUM, PLEASE.
Unless our leaders have given up completely on HEOs, and I don't think they
have, a development schedule is a must. No serious project, whether built by
paid pros, volunteers, or elves, can be pursued without one. (Schedules for
project components change, it's true, and when that happens, the master
schedule is usually adjusted, and a new one is promulgated.) In our case,
because the launch is so uncertain, perhaps the final milestone on our project
schedule should be "Ready for Spaceship Integration" or some such. There is
widely used computer based project management software available.
Without a well-known and well-disseminated development schedule, there is no
project, and our leadership should understand that.
What about financial, management, and technical resources? We know that
there are serious--possibly fatal--financial obstacles to launch. But what
about other constraints? Is there enough money to develop and build the bird
or not? I have never heard a statement on the matter. What are the specific
areas in which technical and managerial volunteers are needed?
My sense is that if the outlook for resources is that we'll have enough for
everything except the launch, then we should get Eagle and/or the Intelsat
thing ready as fast as prudently possible. Everyone--designers, builders,
Board, membership at large-- will have a great sense of achievement. Then, if
it comes to naught, we'll all know that we did what we could. As it stands,
it seems it would take a great deal of time--years-- to be ready even if a
launch opportunity appeared. But then again, I'm not at all sure of that,
because for information we have available is, well, woefully inadequate.
One final thought: I'm just as tired of reading posts that come down hard on
"complainers and whiners" as I am of the rest of it. We do have very serious
unresolved issues that threaten the future of our piece of this great hobby.
Why shouldn't people complain about that and urge resolution? Calls to "stop
complaining and volunteer" strike me as rather hollow. What is it that we're
volunteering for, envelope stuffing (everyone can do it), building something
(very few can do it), strategic thinking (many think they can do it)? Again,
give us the facts and, with the impressive talent we can draw from, we'll come
up with some answers. Without the facts, we won't.
73,
Tony, N2UN
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:41:01 -0000
From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh(AT)comcast.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
To: "Luc Leblanc" <lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>, <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Message-ID: <040301c8e83c$a9694770$0201a8c0(AT)your6bvpxyztoq>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I don't think that pooling donations from all hams worlwide for one launch
will solve the problem. That was the method used to launch all previous HEOs
and is now breaking down because the hidden donation from EU governments is
no longer there.
73,
John
KD6OZH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luc Leblanc" <lucleblanc6(AT)videotron.ca>
To: <amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:32 UTC
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA
> On 16 Jul 2008 at 22:40, John B. Stephensen wrote:
>
>> Hi Luc,
>>
>> You're assuming that there is enough money in the combination of all
>> AMSAT
>> organizations and that each AMSAT has an equal chance of getting a ride
>> into
>> orbit in all countries.
>
> No You get me wrong here if we regroup all the funding sources in one
> international satellite launching fund where each AMSAT'S group will
> be in charge of promoting their own country funding structure towards one
> goal it is possible to accumulate enough money for a launch. Not
> a launch per country but all the country for a launch eg: P3E
>
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:42:13 -0500
From: Bruce Bostwick <lihan161051(AT)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Vanishing Hams
To: amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org
Message-ID: <AA9E0A67-2881-4F77-900B-23A482AC4B4A(AT)sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I'm fairly sure that for a lot of the mainstream population, having an
active interest in technology and technical things has almost always
been considered antisocial or at least suspicious. I've never been
convinced that that's been particularly good for our society, but
that's the attitude. (And, unfortunately, the attitude of a lot of
key decision makers of our society as well.) If I could make any
single paradigm change I wanted, that would be a strong contender ..
my memories of dealing with some of that hostility are particularly
bitter.
(The hostility to people who have the ability to self-educate is, if
possible, even greater than it is to people who seek out formal
education. It seems the pursuit of knowledge for knowledge's sake is
seen as some sort of sin by some people.)
On Jul 17, 2008, at 1:10 PM, John B. Stephensen wrote:
> Wanting to learn about things technical was considered anti-social
> in the
> 1950's and 1960's so that hasn't changed.
>
> 73,
>
> John
> KD6OZH
"No nation was ever so virtuous as each believes itself, and none was
ever so wicked as each believes the other." -- Bertrand Russell
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:53:42 -0500
From: Joe <nss(AT)mwt.net>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Torture
To: tjjapha(AT)earthlink.net
Cc: amsat-bb(AT)AMSAT.Org
Message-ID: <487F9536.80004(AT)mwt.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Afternoon Everyone,
ANTHONY JAPHA wrote:
>Bird Admirers,
>
>I've been reading the bb and feel like I'm emerging from a torture chamber.
[snip]
>
> It's possible that a great deal of this unpleasantness could have been
avoided if the folks who are aware of the facts would have made them widely
available.
>
>
Exactly,
Just as in a marriage, ( a different type of relationship) the number
one killer of a marriage is communication. How sad it is, that a group
of people that are know as "Communicators" simply do not do so.
>The membership is entitled to know quickly when important things change,
whether that's a change in approach to getting a new bird up, a fundamental
change in design philosophy for a new bird, financial difficulties, or a
significant personnel change. We've been given next to nothing, and naturally
that breeds discomfort, to say the least. NO MORE PABLUM, PLEASE.
>
>Unless our leaders have given up completely on HEOs, and I don't think they
have, a development schedule is a must. No serious project, whether built by
paid pros, volunteers, or elves, can be pursued without one. (Schedules for
project components change, it's true, and when that happens, the master
schedule is usually adjusted, and a new one is promulgated.) In our case,
>because the launch is so uncertain, perhaps the final milestone on our
project schedule should be "Ready for Spaceship Integration" or some such.
There is widely used computer based project management software available.
>
>Without a well-known and well-disseminated development schedule, there is no
project, and our leadership should understand that.
>
>What about financial, management, and technical resources? We know that
there are serious--possibly fatal--financial obstacles to launch. But what
about other constraints? Is there enough money to develop and build the bird
or not? I have never heard a statement on the matter. What are the specific
areas in which technical and managerial volunteers are needed?
>
>My sense is that if the outlook for resources is that we'll have enough for
everything except the launch, then we should get Eagle and/or the Intelsat
thing ready as fast as prudently possible. Everyone--designers, builders,
Board, membership at large-- will have a great sense of achievement. Then, if
it comes to naught, we'll all know that we did what we could. As it stands,
it seems it would take a great deal of time--years-- to be ready even if a
launch opportunity appeared. But then again, I'm not at all sure of that,
because for information we have available is, well, woefully inadequate.
>
>One final thought: I'm just as tired of reading posts that come down hard on
"complainers and whiners" as I am of the rest of it. We do have very serious
unresolved issues that threaten the future of our piece of this great hobby.
Why shouldn't people complain about that and urge resolution? Calls to "stop
complaining and volunteer" strike me as rather hollow. What is it that we're
volunteering for, envelope stuffing (everyone can do it), building something
(very few can do it), strategic thinking (many think they can do it)? Again,
give us the facts and, with the impressive talent we can draw from, we'll come
up with some answers. Without the facts, we won't.
>
>73,
>Tony, N2UN
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb(AT)amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 3, Issue 354
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